[Intro music] Hi. I’m Jackie Jackson, host of the Freedom
Report, where every question is eternal. Should women be allowed to vote? Can black people do science? Is a cabal of Jewish elites colluding with
the Trilateral Commission to turn Atlantis gay? I guess we’ll never know. The important thing is that we never stop
debating. Jackie: Do vaccines cause feminism? Where do gay people come from? What’s really inside the moon? Fossils: are they real? Why is there no white history month? What if dreams are the real reality? Tonight we’ll be debating the question,
are trans women women? My first guest is Tiffany Tumbles, host of
the popular YouTube series, Trans Tips with Tiffany. Clarence, could we roll a clip? Hey fam, welcome to trans tips with Tiffany,
with new feminization secrets every week to help you unlock your inner woman. This week I’ll be demonstrating how women
eat barbecued ribs. So you have your rack of ribs, and what men usually do, is they hold the rib like this and they kind of dig in. Now some guys like it if you do that, they
like a girl who’s a little bit messy. But if you want to appear more feminine, what
you should do is just kind of— [dubstep] Fuck! Wow, truly inspiring. My other guest tonight is Abigail Cockbane,
feminist activist and author of “The Trans Menace: Lesbian Genocide and the Rape of Feminism.” So, tell me, Abigail, are trans women really
women? If by trans women you mean men who put on
lipstick and invade women’s spaces, then no, men are not women. Ok. And Tiffany, what do you say to that? Um, do I really have to respond to that? Well, yes. Yes you do. You’re here to debate aren’t you? The debate must commence, Tiffany, the debate
must commence! Well, I am a woman. I live my life as a woman, I wake up as a
woman, I make love as a woman, I experience misogyny like a woman, I’m treated like a woman
in public — No no no no no no. Females are oppressed under patriarchy because
men want control of our wombs. Males impersonating women don’t have wombs,
and they cannot be oppressed on that basis. Well, what about infertile cis women, men
don’t want to control their wombs but they still experience sexism, don’t they? Yes, because being female means you’re assumed
to have female reproductive function. Men do not try to control the reproductive
function of other men pretending to be women. I am not a man pretending to be a woman. When men catcall trans women, when they rape
us, when they harass us, when they deny us employment, they don’t care that we don’t
have wombs, they only care that we’re women. Well, does any of that even happen?
I for one can always tell the difference between a real woman and a man in a wig, and I’m
pretty sure so can men. Well you would know that it happens all the
time if you were willing to listen to the experiences of trans women, but you’re not
willing to do that because you are a TERF. [dramatic orchestral sting] What did you just call me. Yeah what does that mean? A TERF. A trans-exclusionary radical feminist. That is a vicious anti-female slur. You know, it’s really not. It’s just a fact that that’s what you
are. If anything, it’s too generous, because
there’s nothing radical or feminist about you view. [dramatic orchestral sting] What? You’re a bad feminist. What did you say? Aw yeah, this is a hot exchange of ideas. Keep it going girls! You’re a bad feminist. This is just reactionary gender essentialism
with a radical veneer. How dare you say that. I’ll teach you a thing or two about gender
essentialism. Gender essentialism is the idea that wearing
high heels and a miniskirt makes you a woman. I never wear high heels or miniskirts, why
do you think trans women do this? Well, Caitlyn Jenner— Not all trans women are Caitlyn Jenner. A lot of trans women are very feminine because
we have to be in order for society to recognize us as women. But makeup and long hair are not what makes
us women, that’s just one way of communicating a truth that comes from within. Right, so any hairy man who decides he feels
like a woman one day can strut around naked in a women’s locker room with his genitals
flopping around, and women who have been abused by men are expected to just allow that in
their safe space. Why is it always “hairy” and “flopping
genitals”? Trans women, as a group, are the most devoted
body hair removers I’ve ever met. They’re also some of the least likely to
flop their genitals in public. That doesn’t matter. To a woman who has been abused the sight of
male genitals is still triggering. Wouldn’t a sexual assailant’s genitals
be hard instead of flopping? I don’t know, but that’s not the point. Trans women are not hairy men who decide to
wave their genitals at women. This is just a scenario you’ve made up to
scare people into thinking trans women are really just predatory men— I’m not making it up. It happens all the time. I can send you at least a dozen Daily Mail
articles about it. Oh, the Daily Mail, that radical feminist
publication we all love so much. I’m sorry, can I interrupt here? It seems like the disagreement in this exchange
is about what it means to be a woman. Abigail, it seems like the idea you’re bringing
to the marketplace is that women are people with vaginas, and Tiffany, you’re trying
to sell us on the idea that a woman is someone who fills the social role of a woman, is that
right? Well, not exactly, I mean you can radically
reject conventional social roles while still being a woman. This is why I emphasize psychology: what matters
is that you feel at ease with female embodiment, and ill at ease with male embodiment. Well, I’m not at ease with female embodiment. Well, would you rather be in a man’s body? Ew, no. The problem isn’t my body, and I’m not
gonna mutilate my body because I’m not delusional like you. The problem is the gendered assumptions that
society projects onto female bodies. If we abolish gender, we’ll also abolish
gender dysphoria. But gender dysphoria isn’t just dissatisfaction
with gendered associations. I don’t like my body being viewed as a passive
object anymore than you do, but that doesn’t mean I’m not dysphoric about my male characteristics
or that I don’t prefer inhabiting a female body. But this “preference” for a female body
is nonsense. You are a male who wants to occupy a female
body like a parasite, but you can’t, so you take pills that make you grow pectoral
tissue, and you paint your face like a parody of exploited womanhood, and even if you do
decide to mutilate your genitals, you’ll still have big hands, and wide shoulders,
and you’ll tower over females like a monster. Society needs to stop enabling these ridiculous
delusions right now and instead help you to get over the fact that no amount of surgery
and makeup can make you into a woman. [sad string quartet] [slow applaud] That was some good free speech
right there. I totally just came. Well hold on, aren’t you the one defining
womanhood with stereotypes? If wearing high heels doesn’t make you a
woman why does having small hands? Because small hands are a result of the same
biological features that engender the female reproductive role for which women—females—are
oppressed under patriarchy. Well, even if reproductive control is the
original reason patriarchy oppresses women, reproductive capacity is not the criterion
society uses when it comes to treating people like women or men. You think because you identify as a woman, society identifies you as one but you’re wrong. You can’t just argue from your feelings. If you were a good feminist then maybe you’d
be willing to believe women’s accounts of their own experiences, but since you aren’t
we can rely on data: trans women experience domestic violence and employment discrimination
at rates even higher than cis women, and are less likely to get victim assistance. Well even if trans survey data is to be trusted,
being a victim still isn’t what makes you a woman. But you said that having a womb is the reason
women are oppressed, which in many cases is demonstrably false. Just because some men are victims of sexual
violence doesn’t mean that they’re women. But if they feel like women, live like women,
and experience misogyny like women, why is having a womb still more important? Because that’s the original reason women
are oppressed in the first place. Even if that’s true, it’s not always the
reason women are oppressed now. What reason could you have to insist on this
apart from pure transphobic prejudice? The reason is that words have to mean something. I have a definition of womanhood that makes
sense, and that everyone can understand. But you want to tell me that anyone who says
they’re a woman is a woman, and that kind of postmodern nonsense makes it impossible
to politically organize as women and as feminists, which leads to men taking over women’s movements
and women’s spaces. Your assumption is still that transwomen are
lying men pretending to be women for what purpose, to enjoy being potentially rejected
by their families, evicted from their homes, abused by the police, and raped in prison? Why can’t you believe that other people
are radically uncomfortable with their assigned gender or sex? Because one minute you’re telling me severe
mental illness is what makes someone transgender, and the next you’ll be asking me to accept
that not all trans people transition, and that women with short hair are actually a
third gender. This is counterrevolutionary, individualist
nonsense that puts personal feelings over political structures. I’m not denying political structures, I’m
telling you that individual people interact with those structures in ways that
don’t always correspond to whether or not they have a womb. Well give me a coherent definition of gender
identity that doesn’t fall apart on examination then maybe I’ll be willing to reconsider. Yeah Tiffany can you explain gender identity,
I don’t really get it. If you’re expecting some ultimate definition
that perfectly accounts for everyone you’ll never be satisfied. But Abigail has no room to talk. She just defined women as people with wombs. Well what about women who have hysterectomies? They still have XX chromosomes. Well what about women with Swyer syndrome,
who have a uterus but XY chromosomes? That’s an aberration. Well goddamn it Abigail, every definition
is perfect if you ignore everything that doesn’t fit the definition. And if this shitty argument is the only reason you have to disregard the lived experiences of thousands of trans
women, well, it’s hard for me to believe that’s anything but bigotry. Well honey I don’t know if we need to be
accusing anyone of bigotry, but Abigail if you’re so smart then how do you know that
she’s not a woman? [church bells and organ music] [Demon voice] Dost thou bleed? What? Dost thou bleed? I do not menstruate out of my dick if that’s
what you’re asking. Infiltrator! Never canst thou enter the sisterhood of the
blood. Good! I just want to pee, I don’t want to be part
of your creepy vagina cult. Oh, and now vaginas are creepy. This is exactly the kind of anti-female sentiment
I’ve come to expect from male feminists. Jackie, I weary of this toilsome man. Shall we begin the ritual of the blood? Oh, is it that time already? Yeah, sure, let’s do it. [Moonlight Sonata] Um, what is going on? If you were part of the true sisterhood, then
maybe you’d know that. Farewell, thou who dost not bleed. [Moonlight Sonata] Okay, well, I’m gonna leave now. Bye.

100 thoughts on “TERFs


    First off I should say that I am trans femme myself—I haven’t announced this on YT, but I’ve recently switched to “she/they” and am beginning medical transition. I mention it now because I’m guessing it affects how you watch this video. That said, I am NOT Tiffany Tumbles, and many things she says about herself are not true of me. I have not had most of the experiences of oppression that many women have. Many trans women do have these experiences, however, but I am very early in transition and haven’t had much time to be treated like a woman (plus I don’t pass well, which often leads to shitty experiences, but different shitty experiences).

    It’s very difficult to talk about the similarities and differences in experiences of cis and trans women. Many trans women genuinely do have privileges as a result of their male upbringing—no matter how many distinctive “woman experiences” I have later in life, there is still that foundational 28 years of male privilege. However it’s nearly impossible to discuss this because the conversation has been so poisoned by TERFs that you can’t explore these nuances without worrying about being misconstrued.

    A note on TERFs for normies: “TERF” is an acronym for “trans-exclusionary radical feminist.” Basically their position is nothing more than an effort to reconcile radical feminism with transphobia. TERFs consider “TERF” a slur, as you see in the video. They call themselves “gender critical.” Some of them make an effort to appear respectful of trans people, but in my experience most do not and are openly hostile and often outright cruel. They use widespread public transphobia to their advantage, relying on pernicious misrepresentations of trans people to appeal to those outside their circle.

    As with all my debate dialogue, Abigail Cockbane’s arguments are taken almost word-for-word from real people. She is neither a strawman nor a steelman.

  2. I'm not even two minutes into this bloody thing and I suddenly have no clue what the fuck is going on! WTF?! lol

  3. It's weird to watch in 2019 and see Tiffany Tumbles saying sensible things.

  4. I'm pretty sure your shoulders are more feminine than mine (a woman with a growbag – er, womb), love u mom.

  5. The issue I have with rad fems, terfs, etc. is that if your idea of womanhood revolves around being oppressed, then in a sexism free world, women cease to exist. The oppression that they fight so hard to eliminate is their only identity.

  6. Dude the "good free speech" was so fucking brutal. I'm sorry you've had to hear that

  7. Holy shit I just lost it with the rib-eating drop. D R O P! Awesome.

  8. But what about the moon you never cleared up what's really inside it

  9. Why does being a man make you a bad feminist? Even if trans women ARE men (which I don't believe, but IF) so what? Some of the best feminists I know are men. And there are other genetic abnormalities that cause women with XY chromosomes like androgen insensitivity disorder, so they don't have female reproductive organs, or menstruate, but they do have vaginas. They tend to be taller genetically just as men tend to be taller, but that's about it. I know of a woman who didn't learn of this until she was 19 and had obviously gone through puberty but hadn't started her period, so she finally went to a doctor to make sure she was ok and her diagnosis was XY. I've only recently learned the term TERF, but now I've even heard of those type of women trying to exclude other women from bringing male babies to rallies. Like are you kidding me, I have to get a baby sitter because this sweet boy happens to have a penis? Like he might oppress you now? I just don't understand that. I am a wife and a mother and I refuse to trust anyone who believes that my amazing husband and my wonderful little boy are undeserving to do or be anything, just as I wouldn't trust anyone who said that I or my wonderful daughter are undeserving to do or be anything.

  10. artistic, saturated with pathos, comedic and to the point.. some people think I actually love the shit they throw in my face…

  11. I really like that Natalie basically did a remake of this in the 'Gender Critical' video. Her revisit of this topic shows how far she's come artistically and philosophically since then.

  12. 7:11 That basically defines classical liberals in a nutshell. Just values without substance or solutions.

  13. 1:29 not joking, when the music started i almost flung my pizza across the room, it made me jump. scary.

  14. "i do not menstruate out of my dick if that's what your asking"

  15. Hard to watch. I've held some of those TERF views. Not that should men transform into women. But pre bottom surgical women should not be in women's places . There was some cultural studies nonsense chucked in there.

    I appreciate your vlogs. They give me some thing to chew on.

  16. Wait, but the terf is also wrong. Some woman who have XY chromosomes can't bleed due to a birth defect where the uterus does not grow properly and eggs are not made. Leading to infertility. So technically she would be neglecting another part of the circle that is women. Along with over weight woman and incredibly under weight women, there are many woman who do not bleed without even counting trans woman. But of course as a transgender myself, I count them as women too. Because that is what they are.

  17. Yo Tiffany used to be woke af, how did she go from this to completely dismissing Baltimore Maryland, what happened to her? D:

  18. Everything the TERF said my own mother has said to me in argument of me coming out as trans. It hits hard when people be this way towards you, but at least you know you’re not alone

  19. Wait, if Abigail is here, then who's free-bleeding all over the national mall?
    After all, the national mall isn't going to bleed all over itself.

  20. men are not women
    women are not men
    kids can't be transgender.
    this is an ideology we must all stop

  21. Well, is misogynist to call women terf's, we don't have to criticize women even on their ideals.

  22. I know parts of this were framed as comedy, but I had some big feels anyway.
    Great essay

  23. Honestly I had a brief time of trying to give TERFs the benefit of the doubt before I really understood what made them bad. The "trans women are parodizing 'real women' with makeup" (which they literally called "womanface" as if wearing makeup of any kind is equivalent to blackface) pretty much immediately threw me right back out of considering their opinions.

  24. "Every definition is perfect if you ignore everything that doesn't fit the definition."

  25. as a man with very small hands, still haven't found any adult man or woman with smaller hands…. 🙁 . . . i feel triggered.

  26. I never though I'd support a feminist
    But here I am supporting TERFS
    They make valid points for once

  27. I had no idea Trans people had it so bad from the feminists too. Thanks for the vids Contra. They provide meaningful answers and show dark nuances about trans folks. You make exelent videos with great editing with what room you have. I respect the hell out of you as a human being and as an artist.

  28. Natalie – as always I appreciate your brilliant and hilarious takes. What really strikes me again and again though is how you are able to convey empathy for different viewpoints even as you show that not all views are created equal. You’re my hero

  29. She questions my sexuality (I'm a cis straight femoid). I love her so so so much, I'm so glad awesome opinions based on facts (mostly sociology) are combined with this type of humor

  30. I don’t menstruate out of my dick if thats what you’re asking

  31. I’m so lost and confused. Like I always try to make sure I use correct pronouns and I will believe that you are a woman or male or neither or both, but at the same time I can understand if women want a women only space…. and I thought that made me more middle but after seeing everything online and this video I feel like I’m just gonna be thrown in with “terfs”. I just am so confused and I want to be understanding of everyone but it seems so difficult…

  32. It's all good and fine, but where's the most difficult part of the moonlight sonata??? Was waiting for that….

  33. TERF: Stop reducing women to just their genitals!
    Trans feminine: h-
    TERF: die

  34. it's a travesty that this video is nowhere near a million views, it's a fucking masterpiece

  35. Why TERFs and fascists don't make an unholy alliance to purge queers, they are made for each other, they speak and structure the arguments in a pretty simmilar way

  36. The blood moon is nigh! Let the ritual of Vooj commence!
    *gyrates rhythmically to rising chants*
    Shed your eggs glorious mothers! Lest the degenerati stealeth our role!

  37. Lol. Terfs need to be asked what they think of intersex ppl. Like sis, you need to calm down. Chromosomes and a womb don't define someone as a woman. Repeat with me- "TRANS WOMEN ARE WOMEN. TRANS MEN ARE MEN" Thank you.

  38. Why don't you mention that mostly black men k*ll black transwomen? It's black toxic masculinity!

  39. Black history month isnt even really a thing to begin with.
    Aside maybe a paper to write in high school, it goes ignored.

  40. Whitey retarded as expected try to impose their ''stupid ideas'' to the world. I NEVER will be a woman, why not just accept this and move on*

  41. I don’t know why but you don’t really bleed if you shower or are in the bath tube so…. everything you said is bullshit

  42. The whole “I can clock a trans person from a mile” reminds me of a scene from the new wolfenstien games where a nazi claimed she could spot Jews in the same way while unknowingly speaking to a Jewish man

  43. The way you dig into those pickles from the fridge…
    I get the feeling. salt is life after starting spiro

  44. I love how you didn't have to strawman ANYTHING the TERF said, their opinions are just that shitty

  45. When will it be accepted for a man to be able to wear a dress withoug having to switch their sex???????

  46. Possibly Would Never Meet This Person iN a Million Years.. Yet, i Feel Like They Totally Get Me. i DuNNo, Hard to Describe.. i Feel Like The World's a Better Place. // i Luv This Channel!!

  47. Excuse me I know the trans girl who played Jackie Jackson I just don’t know how or where. From wv went to fairmont state university.

  48. I just want to say that your ability to make logical, rational (not always right, don't jump on me) from two completely opposing views is beautiful. I have honestly never really understood the trans experience and I have always just said the same shit your TERF character is saying, but honestly way less assholey. I just figured it was a symptom of traditional gender roles. I have experience gender dysphoria based on this myself. But after watching your last few videos I feel like I can understand the idea a little bit better. I will never really understand it, just like I will never understand what it is like to live as a man or as a black person, but I feel slightly less ignorant and I appreciate it. I have never felt comfortable about talking about this issue with a trans person. I don't want to say the wrong words and offend someone or whatever. I didn't grow up learning how to navigate this social arena and not having any trans people in my life I haven't learned how to navigate it as an adult. I have considered joining forums to learn, but they are usually banned to anyone not trans. so thank you for all that you share. it is appreciated.

  49. Contrapoints I adore your videos! I have to say though for this one while these words may have been taken from real people, most none of them contained the cohesive arguments radical feminism makes (even tho I straight laughed bc it was p relatable abt the toxicity living in rf)– so in case I'm interpreting this wrong, I must ask if you intended to show the gender criticism of radical feminism to be terf through this narrow (and transphobic indeed) lense or if you believe you can be gender critical without being a terf but wanted to show the side of gen crit that is? I have a feeling that the gist is gender criticism is transphobic period– if so would make a different argument, but one based on what I currently know, so would also like to learn more as my pov may be limited.

  50. Wow Contrapoints as someone who is called a Terf I have to admit you did a fucking good job on this! You are super talented and I had a good laugh with this! This is a good dialogue though! 👍🏾👍🏾

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